According to columnist Martin Daubney, members of the MGTOW community believe that legal and romantic entanglements with women fail a cost–benefit analysis and risk–benefit analysis. Jeremy Nicholson writing for Psychology Today similarly described MGTOW as men frustrated with the lack of incentives to date who choose to opt out of dating and focus on taking care of themselves. Kay Hymowitz has stated that some self-identified MGTOW express discontent because they see women as hypergamous and manipulative. Business Insider reporter Dylan Love wrote a “fully-realized MGTOW (there are levels to it) is someone who shuns all relationships with women, short-term, long-term, romantic, and otherwise. He eventually shuns society as a whole.” MGTOW use the word “gynocentric” to describe conditions that favor women to the detriment of men, and are opposed to such circumstances.
-from Men Going Their Own Way (MGTOW) on Wikipedia.
I heard about this on Facebook less than an hour ago (as I write this). I’ve been doing a bit of Googling and read a couple of articles, and it seems well out of my experience. But then again, I’m 62 years old and as of next April, I’ll have been married to the same woman for 34 years.
However, my experiences as a young man back in the day are a lot different from those in today’s society. Even my expectations were different. I’d always been raised to believe that when I grew up, I’d leave home, make my way in the world (get a job, support myself), meet “the right woman,” get married, and have children.
I figured that was “normal” for all guys everywhere. That’s just how things worked.
I’ve found the official MGTOW.com website, but I haven’t had a chance to poke around yet.
Like I said, I’ve read a couple of articles. The first was written by Kay Hymowitz and is titled Why Are Men So Angry?. I should say they might be angry at Hymowitz because she wrote a book called “Manning Up: How the Rise of Women Has Turned Men into Boys.”
Here’s some of what she has to say:
About a week ago, The Wall Street Journal published an excerpt of my new book, which argued that the new stage I call pre-adulthood—the twenties and early thirties—was not bringing out the best in single young men. Some men didn’t like it. As in, “cancel-my-subscription-the-writer-should-contract-such-a-bad-case-of-carpel-tunnel-syndrome-she-never-writes-again” didn’t like it.
But a lot of the responses unwittingly proved my point—and another one: Men are really, really angry. Consider: “We’re not STUCK in pre-adulthood, we choose it because there aren’t any desirable American women. They’ve been bred to abuse men.” This fairly typical response that appeared at the Seattle Post Intelligencer website: “Sorry ladies. In the age of PlayStation 3s, 24-hours-a-day sports channels, and free Internet porn, you are now obsolete. All that nagging, whining, and stealing our hard earned cash have finally caught up to you.”
Yikes! Has feminism (there are so many waves, current feminism bears no resemblance to what I was familiar with in the 1970s) somehow made women so competent and equal that men can’t handle a relationship with them? Has this resulted in young men turning away from dealing with equal female partners and withdrawing into “PlayStation 3s, 24-hours-a-day sports channels, and free Internet porn?”
That explanation might satisfy a lot of women, but even Hymowitz doesn’t think it’s the whole story:
Women may want equality at the conference table and treadmill. But when it comes to sex and dating, they aren’t so sure.
But there’s another reason for these rants, one that is far less understood. Let’s call it gender bait and switch. Never before in history have men been matched up with women who are so much their equal—socially, professionally, and sexually. By the time they reach their twenties, they have years of experience with women as equal competitors—in school, on soccer fields, and even in bed. They very reasonably assume that the women they are meeting at a bar or café or gym are after the same things they are: financial independence, career success, toned triceps, and sex.
That’s the bait; here comes the switch. Women may want equality at the conference table and treadmill. But when it comes to sex and dating, they aren’t so sure. The might hook up as freely as a Duke athlete. Or, they might want men to play Greatest Generation gentleman. Yes, they want men to pay for dinner, call for dates—a writer at the popular dating website The Frisky titled a recent piece “Call me and ask me out for a damn date!”—and open doors for them. A lot of men wonder: “WTF??!” Why should they do the asking? Why should they pay for dinner? After all, they are equals and in any case, the woman a guy is asking out probably has more cash in her pocket than he does; recent female graduates are making more than males in most large cities.
In other words, according to this article, the problem may not be with men dealing with women as equals, but woman wanting to be treated as equal to men in everything except dating.
This may also relate to a concept called Hypergamy or “marrying up.” A “term used in social science for the act or practice of a woman marrying a man of higher caste or social status than herself.”
Of course, this social expectation has been around a long time, and the historic advantages men have had over women for most of the existence of the human race is likely a large contributor.
But if society has “progressed” and women in western culture are equal to or strongly approaching equal to men, then why hasn’t this expectation gone the way of the Dodo bird?
The flip side to Hymowitz’s opinion is an article written by Jeremy Nicholson, MSW, Ph.D called Why Are Men Frustrated With Dating?.
Essentially, many men report that they find modern dating a primarily punishing affair. Changing social norms has allowed few avenues by which they can be both acceptable as a relationship partner and attractive as a sex partner. As a result, at least half of their needs are unfulfilled, regardless of the decision they make.
If men choose to follow social norms and become compliant as “good guys”, they may get a “relationship partner”. However, due to women’s social vs. biological double-bind, these compliant men may also not be “attractive” to those same relationship partners (Buss & Shackelford, 2008). As a result, they may be punished by their girlfriend’s/wife’s lack of sexual interest, being cheated on, or disrespected as a “push over”. These men may further be regarded as “just friends”—expected to pay for all of the costs of a relationship, without the physical and intimate benefits.
Nicholson doesn’t believe this issue is caused by male immaturity, but in a shift of social expectations that remove the incentive for men dating, especially in a society where the social norms now highly favor women.
According to Wikipedia, “MGTOW use the word “gynocentric” to describe conditions that favor women to the detriment of men, and are opposed to such circumstances.”
Nicholson believes there are four options for such men:
- Becoming attractive
- Partnering carefully
- Holding high standards
- Opting out
The article I linked to provides descriptions of each of these options, and of course, opting out is the MGTOW position.
I have two sons who are age 30 (twins) and a 28-year-old daughter, so this is very much related to them. Only one of my sons married, had children, and got a divorce. The other two kids don’t even date.
I thought it rather odd that all three of them hadn’t found mates of one sort or another by now, but maybe the situation I’ve been describing is part of the problem.
I don’t have much of a conclusion to this. I’m writing as a way of processing this information. Maybe more will come of it later, including yet another short story about the dystopia.
Addendum, 1 February 2018: I write weekly for Lyrical Fiction Friday hosted at The Next Chapter. Marquessa posts a line from a song every week and asks that anyone who wants to participate uses it as a prompt for authoring a poem, short story, or other creative work. The lyric for this week is …There are some things I won’t do…I don’t ever want to leave you confused… “
I was having trouble finding a “hook” for a story based on that, so I looked up the entire song which is I Don’t Need a Man (YouTube video) recorded by The Pussycat Dolls in 2005. The title and frankly the lyrics sound pretty horrible in some sense, but in researching the meaning, I found that it’s not addressed at all men, just those who are arrogant enough to believe they’re God’s gift to all women everywhere.
Okay, I get it and it’s a valid point, but then I remembered I wrote this article a little over a year ago, which attracted a fair amount of pro and con comments. In this case, I thought it appropriate to use as a response to the writing challenge, not because the song in question is really a rejection of all women of all men, but to give a fresh voice to an obviously changing dynamic in male-female relationships in the 21st century.
Let me know what you think.
poweredbyrobots.com 
One of my five sons hasn’t dated a lot. People can have a hard time understanding it, and one sister-in-law (the oldest) sort of bugs him about it. The oldest three are happily paired (before thirty). The youngest one dates a lot. But he’s in college and not planning on marriage very soon.* The other one I mentioned has a different type of personality from the youngest one. The youngest one is fine with going here and there for the fun of it as a primary reason. His next older brother is an all-in type of person and is waiting on what would be options 2 and 3 (not that the older three don’t have high standards or didn’t partner carefully). This one also wants to get himself more established in his career path (although he has already bought himself a home in a great neighborhood), option 1.
He dated a young, “hot” girl he met at a pool. Found out she was a bit psycho — saying guys use her, but also acting like she was ready for sex on a first date. (I feel sorry for her as I hear that. What the heck?) He didn’t take advantage and never asked her out again. [This reminds me of a date the youngest one went on. Apparently, he had decided on it because of looks. On the date, they got to talking. He said, “Is this the way you normally talk?” He described it as ghetto. She said yes. He said it was over. He followed through on the date (eating at a nice but not terribly expensive place), and paid, but told her he wouldn’t be calling her for another date.]
That second-to-youngest has also dated a woman who was in her early thirties. He liked her but realized he didn’t want to parent her two children and deal with an ex. I’m sure I don’t know all of his dating history. It’s mainly been enough for him to know, he doesn’t want to waste time and attachment. If he spends time getting to know someone, he wants it to be for good reason and not to say goodbye. He may eventually spend more time getting to know someone and have to say goodbye, but he doesn’t want to do a lot of it.
My sons all know that a woman right out of college may be making more money than a lot of men, but she (generally) won’t hold on to that advantage (or even make as much as the average man in her field). Particularly if she has children, she won’t have as much work experience or time in. There is the time around each birth and the possibility of staying home to parent the child/children. These are values my sons have.
* The second to oldest married while he was still in college. He found who he liked and didn’t want to let go. They both graduated and have both gone on to graduate school as well now.
Both of the oldest daughters-in-law have trained (and continue) with professions focused on children, so they won’t be making bank. Well, except the second-oldest is getting a PhD, so we will see.
My youngest son says men are more likely to be sociopaths or psychopaths, which helps with being a business leader, so it makes sense that fewer women make it to the echelons of being, say, CEO.
LikeLike
Oh, my oldest son met his wife while they were both going to college too. But she was sort of a party girl [still is, they hosted a New Year’s Eve party last night] — and he didn’t propose until she was finished with college. She was his first official girlfriend, and they dated all through college (other than his first couple years or so when he was taking college courses while home schooling for high school). There’s a funny story, though, of a neighborhood girl (who was just a friend, like so many girls in the neighborhood were, like through age twelve) who was surprised, sad/mad that when she asked if he at about fourteen had a girlfriend now he said he’d never had a girlfriend.
[Note: neither couple (oldest two couples) met AT college or even through college.]
LikeLike
Does anyone under 40 these days actually know what it is that they want from life? Adolescence is now into the 30’s, and getting established financially is generally desirable for both marital partners, yet children require much younger mothers to be safely engendered and raised.
Not having a clear picture of what one’s life is supposed to be like remains my downfall at 61, and my parents raised me to be an early adopter of current relationship styles, which leaves one without family as age encroaches. Oddly, there is not only selfishness in avoiding the pain of repeated failed relationships, but a terrible inability to visualize a replacement for what society is offering.
Without a known goal, it is very difficult to proceed, and the confusion is painful. It is also a source of irrevocable choices, and the consequences of too many options being open in our non-moral society.
LikeLike
That’s really poignant, Questor. “Without a known goal …”
“… inability to visualize a replacement for what society is offering.”
And I agree with you that it’s better for mothers (and fathers) to be young.
I don’t think any of my children will have children before their thirties. To get
established in a career with a foreseeable future takes longer these days. And,
when a woman finds herself a place in the working world, it is less doable then to
quit that and be a mother. Both incomes are often necessary. And marriage with kids
is a risk for women because they are putting more into the matter as the father goes on
with his career. My oldest son, and his wife, recently asked me if I would take care of their
baby if they were to have one next year or so. They don’t want their child raised by strangers.
LikeLike
I was having a conversation like this with a friend of mine yesterday over coffee. He’s my age and was married relatively young to a woman he first met in a Christian book store. He has two grown daughters, one who is married and a Ph.D in Organic Chemistry I think, and the other is in a relationship.
I know from my own experience that even when I got married, I didn’t have a clear goal for my life. Being married helped me organize but even after that, parenting, and then a career were challenging. It took a long time to mature and grow into those roles and sometimes I still wonder how well I’m doing.
I think I make a better Grandpa.
Now that social roles are changing so drastically as well as adding sexual orientation and gender fluidity into the mix, I think young people have a very tough time defining themselves in a relationship or even all by themselves. Might be why a group such as MGTOW has gotten traction.
LikeLike
That son who isn’t married but has bought a home [the oldest son and his wife have also bought a home] had a roommate for a while. His roommate was more like, or close to, what I imagine the guys in the MGTOW zeitgeist would be like. My son had him paying less than one would have to pay to rent an apartment, and wasn’t charging for part of utilities, cable, water, etc. And, he was being overly considerate in letting the roommate watch all his sports almost all the time (only insisting on his television time with his own television a couple times per week). My son had bought all the (very nice and comfortable) furniture except the roommate’s bed. The roommate started complaining about the monthly payment, while my son had thought about charging more (and also wasn’t liking this self-absorbed guy living at his place). After my son locked his keys in his car at a nearby store and asked the roommate if he could bring him his extra set, and the roommate said he’d (for no particular reason) get to it in a couple hours maybe, my son decided to go ahead and increase the rent by fifty dollars (which is a normal increase per year in this area). [My son got a roadside service per his car insurance to take care of the matter at hand, so he didn’t wait around.] When he informed the roommate of the increase, all kinds of doofus type stuff came out the guy’s mouth. His money was helping pay the mortgage [which happens to be what is going on in most any situation where you rent], the furniture wasn’t his; sounded like a gal who didn’t know why her boyfriend hadn’t proposed yet (which would be a stupid girl to live with a boyfriend and help pay his mortgage, by the way… unless, of course, what she’s “getting” — thinking more like a guy — is cheaper rent and handy sex, and she doesn’t care about a relationship).
The guy also had a girlfriend while he lived there, and one of the things he would say about her every time he spoke of her, was that he knew she wasn’t pretty, and no real compliments. (My son says she wasn’t ugly either, but it was weird that her not being pretty was a main point to this guy but he still dated her.) From time to time, the guy would tell the girl they should take a break (this was to cool off her view of the relationship), sometimes with crying (on his part) thrown in to appear distraught. But then he would go to her house (her parents’) anyway and spend time with her. My son asked if they “did” anything. When the answer was yes, my son angrily said, “then you’re not taking a break!” When the guy talked about his view of a relationship, he spoke of reducing the cost of living expenses, maybe being able to buy a house together (this is all also partly because he isn’t making anything of his own life to be able to afford anything, he even turned down a promotion at the grocery store so he wouldn’t be stressed). You can be sure paying for housing wasn’t the main motivation of the girl. My son says she liked spending time with this guy who wasn’t a total jerk (little did she seem to understand, he was an early learning experience in her life). And he didn’t want to “do” those things with her anyway (he apparently thought he should have prettier if it was going to look to others like he actually picked her out long-term). My son was fed up, increased the rent (like a normal person would if you weren’t trying to give a great friend an unnecessary break). The guy, on the day he was moving out, hesitated trying to relish a moment thinking his old friend would be having a hard time paying his mortgage. Nope. Now the guy is living back at his parents’ house, paying a little less than he was at my son’s place.
LikeLike
I think it’s true that some guys never grow up, but I’ve met my fair share of girls who haven’t either including, unfortunately, my ex-daughter-in-law.
LikeLike
Sorry (correction), better punctuation needed to make meaning more apparent:
… hesitated — trying/hoping to relish a moment thinking
his old friend would be having a hard time paying his mortgage.
Nope
LikeLike
Sure, there are immature girls. Don’t pick one.
LikeLike
I didn’t. I’ve been married to a really mature woman for almost 34 years.
LikeLike
James, I wasn’t saying you did. I was participating in the conversation at hand.
Glad you’re happy with or proud of your wife; it’s good to be satisfied and feel at home with one’s situation.
LikeLike
@James: I know from my own experience that even when I got married, I didn’t have a clear
goal for my life. Being married helped me organize but …
Yeah, I don't think it's a necessity to have a total plan in terms of career.
But having a vision for what having a family is all about does matter.
My oldest son had a degree but was working as a valet when he got married.
He wasn't making bad money (with tips). Between him and his wife's teaching salary, they qualified for a nice three-bedroom house [not in the same excellent neighborhood as the other son]. Subsequently, he has gotten a job in charge of IT nationally for the U.S. side of a Japanese-U.S. technology company (just beginning to establish himself where he wants to be in general). He and his wife see family as a higher priority yet — each other, the extended family, future kids. But my son was also practical (just being realistic) to an extent… thus, although he and his wife were exclusive in college, he wanted to be sure she graduated — for her sake (it's good for a woman to know she has a way to support herself if need be, if her husband dies or if there is a divorce). If I would have said no to taking care of their baby, they would wait so she could stop working if he’s paid more.
(Of course, she would still be working in the true sense of the word… just not for money.)
LikeLike
I also think that plans shift and need to be adjusted throughout the lifetime of the marriage. Neither spouse will be the same person five, ten, or twenty years down the road as they were their wedding day. Successful adjustments usually mean the marriage continues. Unsuccessful adjustments usually lead to divorce.
Of course, with MGTOW folks, they never (potentially) get that far.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Well, sorry…
If you feel like it, please insert the closing carrot up there.
LikeLike
Oh, thanks.
LikeLike
No worries.
LikeLike
I just don’t know about not being “the same person” — guess it depends.
LikeLike
What I mean is that people mature, develop new interests, goals, and that sort of thing.
LikeLike
In in my experience, there needs to be adjustment to facts on the ground. So, for instance, when I had our first child, all attention all the time couldn’t be about my husband. He actually felt justified to be angry at me for this undeniable reality. Then, when I decided to stay up later to spend more focused time with him (cautioned against by new mom books), he decided to express a total grudge relentlessly. He was a hateful bastard.
I wasn’t a different person. I was doing what we had decided to do (and had always intended).
On the other hand, being a different person as in suddenly saying you could’ve done better career-wise by not getting married, and blaming the mother of one’s kids — that’s being another person.
LikeLike
He didn’t adjust to the changes in the family. A new child always has a really dramatic effect on a marriage. At least in my experience, new Moms make the shift a lot better than new Dads. Of course, some Dad’s don’t make the shift at all and, as you’ve just pointed out, that turns into trouble.
LikeLike
Oh, and he was doing well with his career. And I had encouraged him along the way, by the way. The truth is he wouldn’t have done as well without me. He was projecting his insecurities on me.
LikeLike
Saw your post and have to say, thank you for keeping an open mind so far. Going your own way is different for every person, and many just want to be left alone to do so.
LikeLike
Thanks for commenting, Gerald. MGTOW reminds me how little I know about the world I live in and I’m certainly interested in learning more (I’ve been married for almost 34 years, so not for me). I’ll have a look at your blog in a bit.
LikeLike
Being left alone (or not harassed) is one thing. (And that’s what should be happening for my one son.) But shouting out all over the place that women are worthless is kinda a different matter.
LikeLike
It’s frustration and fear. Mostly mostly about educating men not shouting. Look at NYC with manspreading which is a crime where you can get arrested.
LikeLike
Interesting, but typing as a middle-aged bachelor (pushing fifty), what irks me about ‘MGTOW’, apart from it being a ludicrous acronym, is that it is based on sulking. It should really be ‘MSTOW’. My guess – and it is only that – is that these ‘MGTOW’ are socially isolated, hence their ‘movement’ exists only in the virtual (internet) sense. Personally, I spent several years in my 20’s doing the Man About the House routine in shared rented houses and flats, in which I was sometimes the only male. So I enjoy having my own living space (a house on which I am mortgage-free), control over my own finances and pension investments and not having the worries that go with having children. My professional employment (I am an engineer) involves a high-degree of multi-tasking, as much as I can cope with. To me bachelorhood is a positive thing. I type all this as it is a subject which I have thought of doing a blog post on myself, but just haven’t got round to it. Oh and the notion that being a bachelor makes one a ‘boy’ as Hymowitz states is wrong. I identify most strongly with people of my own socio-economic background and age-group, regardless of their marital status or whether or not they have kids.
LikeLike
I’m not sure if the MGTOW movement is based significantly on “stage of life” issues or not. It’s possible (I’m just guessing) that you are more settled in your life as a man pushing 50 than some 20 or 30 year olds.
It also may be that social issues and expectations have changed over time and thus have affected the dynamics of dating. Even how people communicate has undergone a radical change and smartphones are seen as an absolute social necessity rather than a convenience.
Also, it would be interesting to know the percentage of men who are officially or otherwise participating in a MGTOW lifestyle. My guess is that it’s hardly the majority of men (but I have no figures to back that up). MGTOW may represent one coping strategy that works for a sub-set of males in western culture.
I was talking about this with a co-worker, a man in his 40s who is married and has four kids. It was difficult for him to relate to since his life has taken quite a different course.
At age 62, if, heaven forbid, something should happen to my wife, I seriously doubt I would seek out female companionship. I’m pretty settled in my ways, and unless it’s a new grandchild or one of my children gets married, I’m not all that inclined to seek out a new emotional attachment.
LikeLike
Thanks for publishing my lengthy comment. ‘MGTOW’, a ‘movement’ which isn’t in my opinion, is definitely a product of the internet and hence that of the ‘millennial’ generation. Genuine social movements – and feminism was one when it started – involve activism to achieve specific goals. ‘MGTOW’ is nothing of the sort. It is based on the nonsensical idea that all women in ‘the West’ or ‘the Anglosphere’ are privileged, when only a minority are, just as only a minority of men are privileged. You only have to read some ‘MGTOW’ blogs to see how fake these men ‘going their own way’ are. What they really want is a woman who is willing to be subordinate. These men also ignore that plenty of women who could easily get married and have kids are content to do neither, they are going their own way, but don’t make an issue of it.
LikeLike
I don’t know how much of an “issue” it is. I wasn’t even aware of it until someone made mention of it on Facebook and I asked about it. If that one reference hadn’t appeared, I’d be totally unaware of MGTOW’s existence.
I’m not in much of a position to defend MGTOW, since I am not in that life situation, but neither do I feel I should condemn it, not knowing what other men are going through.
LikeLike
Ah yes, the old they’re whiners, therefore, they’re using this as an excuse to opt out. But let’s just look at this from a guy that is MGTOW
Cultural
A woman can (And has under many documented cases) simply on just an accusation completely destroy a man. No proof needed just the accusation. There have been cases where a man got charged for groping from an ex-girlfriend who was his girlfriend at the time on the street. There are scores of cases like this. And just in case you try to pull that “it’s only a small percentage that are like this” line. Police in some places has found that as many as 50 to 60% of INVESTIGATIONS, not cases that go to trial are without merit.
Men are treated and shown to be incompetent bumbling idiots in the media. We’re treated like potential rapists and feminists in some cases have openly and happily called for the killing of the vast majority of men. This Misandry has TO DATE not been called out by any woman in prominence much less any feminist. in fact, in some cases it’s treated like a joke
Yeah, dissent angle when is joking about mass murder EVER funny? Got an answer for that one
Now let’s get into the Duluth Model this model is predicated on the fact that ALL domestic violence is done by men. No attempt is ever made to consider verbal, mental or even physical assault from women is a possibility. And again in some feminist circles, this is regarded as a joke
Oh and let’s not even get into the almost countless amounts of time people will rush to support when a woman is in pain but will either ignore, tell the guy to stop being a baby or worse LAUGH when a man is in the same predicament.
Now dissent let’s talk LEGALITIES
Women can divorce a man get half his assets without ever having done even so much as a stitch of effort to contribute to that man’s business. In fact a recent case in Britain a woman who was divorced from her husband 30 years earlier was still able to legally get back financial support from him. Even though there was no such arrangement in place when they divorced nor did they ever have kids.
A woman can commit paternity fraud and the man even though he didn’t want the child STILL has to pay for said child. This rule even applies if the woman sexually assaulted an underage male and became pregnant because of it.
Oh and let’s not even get into the inherent corruption being practiced by divorce lawyers and attorneys to keep the money flowing in, even if the divorce was amicable.
So WOW men are wising up and deciding not to go there and you have the nerve to sit there and call us crybabies and quitters because we don’t do it your way.
Oh and that so called male privilege
67% of violent deaths
we live shorter lives
get less medical support
93% of workplace deaths
98% of war casualties
70% of the homeless
Oh yeah male privilege is just AWESOME!!!!!!
dissent angle…go f**k yourself
LikeLiked by 1 person
I went ahead and approved your comment even though it’s pretty hostile. If this devolves into a flame war, I’ll eliminate the comments.
LikeLike
OK it was hostile for a reason. This person made assertions without ever bothering to ask or research the concept. Someone is going to make an assertion like that publicly then they had better be prepared to back it up.
It’s quite simple really all he has to do is prove that anything I said (Hostile as it was) wrong.
Wish him luck for me, and thanks
LikeLike
No worries, he’s attempting to lecture me on what I already know. Not once have I mentioned ‘male privilege’ or did I joke about mass murder, rather I am re ridiculing the belief made by ‘MGTOW’ that *all* women in the ‘first world’ are ‘privileged. As for false rape accusations, I have already done a post about it as he would know if he’d bothered to check my blog. What I will say is that ‘MGTOW’ are specifically an *American* concept and they are just another brand of sulking snowflake. I belatedly did a Page on the subject which I wasn’t going to link, but here it is:
https://dissentangle.wordpress.com/dream-home-heartache/
The way the ‘MGTOW’ rant you’d think that there were no women in low-paid dead-end jobs when there are millions, they just don’t happen to include high-profile feminists.
LikeLike
In my opinion, if a person, man or woman, wants to take themselves out of the dating pool or otherwise desist from certain types of contact with the opposite sex, they have a right to do so, regardless of the reasons. In fact, I know a few people who should probably do just that until they get their thoughts and feelings straight about what they want out of a relationship. The only basis for objection left is if the person publicly expresses their opinions, particularly in the blogosphere or other forms of social networking. Then the opinions, for good or for ill, really start flying.
LikeLike
The ‘dating pool’ isn’t the issue. ‘MGTOW’ are motivated by the nonsensical belief that all women are their ‘oppressors’.
LikeLike
I’m sure some men feel that way.
LikeLiked by 1 person
This and much more is absolutely true.
I went through much anger 9 years ago when my eyes suddenly opened. I railed with different levels of intensity on and off for about 6 years and all my kids understand well how it works. My sons don’t fall for it and my daughter uses it fully to her advantage.
Now I walk with authority and my wife appreciates it.
The cool thing is that once this bizarre reality is accepted and a rebalancing happens you as a man will automatically go your own way- which is the ultimate Man’s Privilege.
Women at this time are not able to go their own way like a man can at will unless they can get the support of men and the backing of men. It is happening.
Going you own way as a man from My perspective is to be an adult and do what’s right regardless of how you feel. The hard part for me was making sex and the games that go with it less important.
What do you think?
LikeLike
Hey I really do hope it works out for you.
That being said though, living a happy, creative and productive life for myself at this point is a much more appealing prospect than “Manning up” for a society that is rotten to the core and uses married men as cash cows.
I know you may not like that term, at this point though that’s what a marriage license is. The Marriage and Divorce laws are so stacked against men at this point that there’s no way in my right mind I’d even consider going there.
And that’s JUST the legal issues. Covering the cultural ones would take an entire blog to do. Which is what I’ve done.
LikeLike
Oh. I’m with you man.
I do a lecture from time to time with men that I call an ‘add a dick to me’. Say it fast.
It is very much in line with the current mgtow thing. I am sooooo happy that men are no longer putting up with shit that is based on the idea every unhappy event in life was cuzzu daddy was mean and mommy was perfect.
I voted for gay marriage because I think it is funny that the idiot divorce judge will have to think for the first time in their life: If it is 2 women and women are perfect, who do we blame.
If it is 2 men and all men are bad, who gets paid by the other for the rest of their natural born life.
I live a good married life but I don’t stoop or bow like I did for the 1st 15 years.
Keep up the good work brother.
LikeLike
MGTOW is about awareness not life style. That’s why a bachelor isn’t considered a MGTOW. There are toxic MGTOW. When I was in the MGTOW.com forums I had men attack me. Then there was some debate and one MGTOW decided to start a drama. These people will push you out if you don’t adopt to their beliefs. There is too much group think especially with the non Monk MGTOW. I’m not sure why.
I had plenty of conflicts with MGTOW, it’s clear a lot of these people are single because they themselves can’t be accountable for their actions or seeing the causing harm of others. Keymaster on MGTOW.COM used to brag he would verbally assault women in real life.
He is just one bitter dude because he put 100% into the relationship only to be cheated on or dumped. At the end of the day it was his choice and those women he dated didn’t put much effort for him so that his fault.
I’m 48 now and it’s highly unlikely to date ever again. There is no point in the big city I live in. Most women are sleeping around way too much in their 20’s and then stop or slow down in their 30’s. Most women want to be equal in the relationship which weakens the man. I’m not going to bother batting out with a woman who wants to take my nuts away. 😛
LikeLike
No disent they’re motivated by female hypergamy and a marriage system that is seriously stacked against them. For someone who claims to ‘know’ this you left that out completely.
This movement that isn’t is a lifestyle choice I don’t know where you got the idea that MGTOW is activism when the acronym doesn’t have the word activism in it. Yes it’s a movement of men deciding to boycott marriage, a group of people doing something is a movement no matter what your opinion says.
Hypergamy is real, deal with it! And by all means go ahead and find where I ever said in ANY of my blogs where I wanted a subordinate woman and when do find it please feel free to share it. And when I say subordinate a place where i SPECIFICALLY say that, not some place where you get to twist the meaning.
Oh and MGTOW is just an American Phenomenon is it? Gee I guess I’ll have to go to all those MGTOW sites on Facebook that aren’t in North America and let them know that then.
This isn’t about marrying women it’s about not marrying. No dude you’re no expert and the fact that women are choosing not to get married is completely irrelevant because it’s called MEN Going Their Own Way not men and women,
Nice try though
LikeLiked by 1 person
I am a huge believer in marriage and enjoy my marriage – most of the time. For me it worked out to just ‘be ok’ with the unfairness. I’m a MAN, I can handle it.
The fact is though if I choose to get out of the marriage/relationship thing, I can. It will cost but the difference is I ain’t scared. Everything costs, it just cost men more.
Sometimes I think of relationships with women like playing the lottery, the odds are wildly stacked against you but initial cost is low. Chance of winning is negligible, but if you get a winner, YOU’RE SET FOR LIFE!! (Just don’t make big life and financial decisions till you know for sure you’ve won!!!)
mgtow is my way
LikeLike
You never sell out for sex, period end of story
The current climate is very hostile of male sexuality and there are more than a few men that are flailing around without a clue at the moment.
I was lucky I knew at the very least how to ask questions which left me the ability to eventually find the answers. Most men are not so fortunate and in order to get to those answers I man has to also be willing to look past the very blatant and clear attempts to demonize the answers.
MGTOW is one of the results of this. Once again they’re pulling out the same old tired excuses only problem for them now is that the internet has allowed people that normally would’ve never met and they started talking to each other.
And a lot of them have figures out that the best way to win is not even play
LikeLike
Marriage? Dating? What a waste of time.
MGTOW for life.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Nice article, quotes, and links. Congrats for happy 34 years. I’ve enjoyed most of our 27.
LikeLike
Great essay!
I just learned what the heck MGTOW stood for and when I came across your thoughts on it, I think I get it. The concept is eerily straightforward yet complex too because we are talking about men and women who differ biologically yet are groomed in a world that promotes fairness in the package of equality.
Which is great, but for everything there is a cost.
When I was single, I loved when men held doors open for me and still do. Also, I I am educated, and knowing how to walk the delicate balance of being an independent woman who is not afraid to depend when needed requires humility. Heck. Men could use a dose of humility too.
As you said though, there are no conclusions, just thoughts😊
LikeLiked by 1 person
I appreciate you reading and commenting EricaJean. Thanks.
LikeLiked by 1 person
You’re welcome!
LikeLike