Why Ed Kramer is Evil but Marion Zimmer Bradley Isn’t. Go figure

bradley

Undated photo of the late author Marion Zimmer Bradley found at Wikipedia

The world is a funny place. On Mike Glyer’s “fanzine” File 770 this morning, I read an article called New Child Porn Charge Against Ed Kramer. I’d never heard of Ed Kramer before, so I looked him up. According to Wikipedia, he is:

an American editor and convicted child molester. Kramer lives in Duluth, Georgia and was a co-founder and part-owner of the Dragon*Con media convention. Kramer has also edited several works in the genres of science fiction, fantasy, and horror. Before pleading guilty in 2013 to three counts of child molestation, Kramer was the subject of a long-running legal battle that began with his initial arrest in August 2000.

The word DragonCon got my attention. DragonCon has been associated with more conservative elements in Science Fiction and Fantasy. In and of itself, that means nothing. If you’ve been sexually abusing children or been into child porn, you are evil and deserve to be in prison, regardless of your politics.

But what gets me is that certain demographics in SF/F fandom seem to give other, similar people a pass because of their politics and because they are feminists, or at least they seem to do so.

I’m talking about the late Marion Zimmer Bradley and her late husband Walter Breen, who have both been established as sexual abusers of Bradley’s children. I’ve addressed this issue here and here.

To be fair, in my former article, many leftist science fiction authors and editors have condemned Bradley and Breen for their crimes, but not all of them. Further, and perhaps just as important, there is a long running fantasy anthology series that bears Bradley’s name and is published to this very day.

I’ve written about Jeannette Ng’s outrage against the late John Campbell, even as she accepted an award named after him, about his sins, about how the name James Tiptree Jr/Alice Sheldon is to be removed from an award all because they were “evil.”

But when it comes to the Marion Zimmer Bradley anthology, the voices of righteous outrage are silent.

*crickets*

Yes, I’ve engaged a couple of voices (exactly two) on twitter who are (seemingly) leftists who condemn Bradley and who didn’t even know about the anthology. The result was, well…nothing. No outrage. No call to larger fandom to remove her name. Nothing.

*crickets*

Look, if Kramer is guilty, even being disabled and wheelchair bound, he should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law and put in prison for the rest of his life. After all, Breen was and he too died in prison. However, to allow Bradley to continue to be honored by naming an anthology after her when Campbell and Tiptree were stripped of similar honors seems a tad inconsistent if not massively hypocritical.

You can’t have it both ways. If someone is guilty of hurting children, they are wrong and I don’t care about their politics.

If Glyer or others have a different perspective, then Heaven help them. They are wrong, too.

When there is equal outrage against Bradley and the anthology named after her is renamed, then I’ll take Glyer, Ng, Jemisin, and others who complain about inequality a bit more seriously.

38 thoughts on “Why Ed Kramer is Evil but Marion Zimmer Bradley Isn’t. Go figure”

  1. I’ma getting my popcorn. The outrage mob is going to put on a show after they read this, my friend.

    Odd though, no one on the right is defending Kramer. They are all calling for him to face full punishment for his crimes.

    But there are still folks on the left that defend Bradley, Breen and several others with similar pedophilia issues and attack anyone who dares bring up their crimes.

    Interesting, isn’t it?

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    • I’ve read the situation with Kramer and I think he should be sent to the deepest circle of Hell for what he’s done. To be fair, a lot of liberal voices came out against Bradley when they found out about her. I think many of them are hurtful to the victim simply because she’s not politically correct, but that’s another side of the die.

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      • Some did but they were few and far between. Many attacked Moira when her book was released by calling her a liar and none of those I have mentioned above denounced MZB when they were confronted with the chance to do so a couple of years back. A certain person has claimed otherwise. As with most everything that person claims, I have seen no eveidence to support that claim. Just the usual insults and snide remarks which is this person’s M.O.

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      • There has been a standard lie from a section of right-wing SF fandom that engages in trolling that people never condemned MZB after Moira Greyland’s revelation. I’ll be very direct and say that it is a lie because it is a claim that has been debunked so often that it is no longer plausible to assume that the people stating this lie are doing so mistakenly. I’ve seen it been done multiple times:
        – Troll says: X never condemned MZB
        – People point out blogposts or social media where they did so
        – Troll says: oh that was so long ago and they only did it that one time.
        – People point out other cases
        – Troll changes the subject…
        – …some weeks/months later
        – Troll says: X never condemned MZB (repeat)
        I used to keep debunking these trolls by citing examples but it is a fool’s errand. The simple checkable reality doesn’t matter to the person doing the trolling. Instead, they aim to cynically exploit child abuse to score points on the internet with no regard to the truth. In reality, back in 2014 it was mainly left-leaning, feminist science fiction bloggers bringing up the fact of MZB’s abuse. It was not as widely discussed on more right-leaning blogs etc back in 2014 and only became a hot topic in 2016 in those circles – not because those people don’t care about child abuse but just because not everybody talks about the same topics at the same time.

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  2. Have you contacted any of the authors who have been published in these anthologies?
    Aside from that, what action do you think people should be taking with regard to these anthologies? I think this is where I’m a bit unclear about what point you are trying to make regarding MZB. She has been roundly condemned posthumously. There aren’t any major awards named after her, so logically people can’t demand her name be taken off an award. The anthology is published by her few remaining supporters. Are you asking that they be stopped? How would that be done? Who would have the power to do that? How would you go about doing that?

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    • It might be nice to see you, Glyer and Cat Rambo actually come out and specifically denounce her. To the best of my knowledge, none of you have.

      Then you might want to look into others still active in SF/F who are just as guilty of this type of horror as Breen and Bradley were and quit deifying them.

      Oh, by the way, the public shunning of one of Breen & Bradley’s victims – their own daughter, Moira Greyland – who was brave enough to tell her story? Yeah, it would be nice to see that come to an end as well.

      But all of that is up to you, Cam, and the rest of the denizens of the House of 770 Vile Aromas.

      Be better, for a change.

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      • //To the best of my knowledge, none of you have.//

        That says far more about your level of knowledge than about anything else.

        I take a very, very dim view of people who only ever engage with child safety issues to try and score points on the internet. My personal commitment on this issue is not something you get to question.

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      • To both Richard and camestrosfelapton (I wish I had a shorter name for you), I will allow comments between the two of you, but as blog owner, if the level of hostility crosses my personally set barrier, I will edit or delete. I welcome opposing views as long as conflict isn’t personalized.

        Liked by 1 person

      • I can only speak to what I’ve seen your lot post and how your side attacked Moria when her book was released.

        And until you grow a pair and start posting under your real name then I get to question everything about you. Only a coward attacks under the cover of anonymity.

        Out of repect for James, this is my last post on this topic on his website.

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      • And your refusal to provide proof that you have denounced MZB or any of the other known pedophiles in SF/F or admit that you have lied and attacked several authors who disagree with your political viewpoint but rather continue to deflect, lie and attack from anonymity speaks volumes about your complete lack of character.

        BTW, why do you keep checking out my website on a daily basis? Are you a stalker too?

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      • As I said, your comment reflects poorly on you. It has no actual connection with what I have publicly stated on the matter. I cannot help you become a better person or more committed to telling the truth.

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      • You wouldn’t know the truth if it bit you in the ass.

        Enough with the deflections.

        You have been called out for YOUR bad conduct. Prove me wrong. Post links to you condemning MZB and praising Moira for being brave enough to expose the truth of what her parents did to her.

        No more deflecting lies and attacks.

        Post your proof, or go away and quit stalking me here and on my website.

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      • Translation: I have no proof, because I’ve never condemned MZB nor praised Moria for exposing the truth about Bradley and Breen.

        Just as I expected from you.

        You, sir, are a liar and a coward.

        And now, I am done with you for good. There is a special circle of Hell for people like you. Enjoy it.

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      • I don’t lie and my statements on this matter are easily checked by anybody who cares about the truth. I can’t (and won’t try to) make people read what they choose not to read. That you choose not to read the truth is your choice not mine and says nothing about *my* character. It is as simple as that.

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      • Your comments have no connection with what I have actually said. I note that you have now stated more than once that you had concluded these comments only to continue (October 2, 2019 at 8:05 pm ” this is my last post on this topic on his website.”; October 3, 2019 at 3:03 pm “And now, I am done with you for good.” October 3, 2019 at 3:06 pm “I’m done responding to his pack of lies, here or anywhere else.”) As you have now demonstrated, none of those statements turned out to be true, even though they were simple claims that you could easily have delivered on.

        This is gets to the point I have made elsewhere. Integrity and honesty are demonstrable. They are achieved by demonstrating them.

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      • Telling malicious lies does not help you improve your reputation. A man of any integrity would apologies and retract “victim blamer” and [Edited by blog owner]. Shame on you and shame on you exploiting somebody else’s blog to make such appalling and cowardly statements.

        Unlike your former ally, Vox Day, I do not blame victims, never have and never will. I take a strong consistent and clear stand against those people who attempt to abuse children sexually, emotionally and physically. Anybody who has read my blog knows that.

        You have not earned the right to attack me in this way. From a person of any honour I would expect an immediate apology.

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      • Don’t hold your breath, kid.

        You are a liar. You lie about your name.

        You are a coward. You attack people under the cover of anonymity, taking away any chance they have a defending themselves by displaying whatever secret it is that you are hiding.

        You are a victim blamer. You were among those that attacked Moira Greyland when her book was released because she told the truth about MZB.

        You are a pedophile apologist. You have refused to post even one link to your so-called “well publicly documented” and likely non-existent condemnations of MZB and/or your praise for Moria to expose the truth about her parents.

        And finally, you are a stalker. You continue to visit my website despite being asked not to. You continue to stalk me across the internet wherever you find me commenting on an issue and instigate a fight.

        Go away, foolish child. You are wasting my time with your weak and feeble mutterings of nonsense.

        Leave me alone or I will have no other choice but to initate legal proceedings here and in your home country to stop your online harrassment.

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      • You sir, are instigating a fight and making defamatory remarks. I was attempting to discuss an issue with James that he had raised with me on Twitter.

        You have repeatedly initiated contact with me and demanded my attention in various forums. My only interest in you is because of your repeated attempts to get my attention.

        However, you have now stated twice (with no basis in fact and contrary to my actual long standing record on this issue) that I am a “pedophile apologist”. That is a pure lie on your part. You are attempting to use the issue of the sexual assault of children as a way of scoring points in an internet argument – PAUSE AND THINK ABOUT THAT – think about what sort of person would DO THAT? What sort of person would, just because they got a bit frustrated in a blog comment section decide that victims of sexual abuse were something to joke about or tell lies about?

        Truth, integrity and character are demonstrable. We demonstrate them in how we behave and how we interact with others. I would ask you to pause and think about that. What are you demonstrating? What are you saying about yourself?

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      • For nearly three years you, Mike Glyer, Cora Buhlert, Delores, J.J. Contrarius and several other of ChinaMike’s 770 vile minions have waged a slander campaign against me and several other authors for one reason only:

        We gave away a free copy of our respective books to a comic con in Wisconsin when the entire literary track bailed at the last second. Those books were given to the attendees so that there would be some form of sci-fi lit represented at the con. And for no other reason.

        Since then, I have put up with three years of lies, slanders and baseless attacks.

        And you have the fucking stones to demand that I apologize to you for defending myself from your vile slanders and attacks?

        James, I’m sorry for the language and if you feel you need to ban me from commenting further here I will understand, but what I am about to say needs to be said to these evil sub-human scum.

        Cam, or whatever the hell your real name is, please relate this to all of your fellow slugs:

        You can all go fuck yourselves.

        I am disinclined to acquiesce to your request for an apology, Cam.

        That means no.

        It also means you’ll be hearing from my attorney. You’ve just given me all the probable cause I need under Nebraska law to have a court order your website host to provide us with your legal name and address so you can be served with a summons.

        And now, I’m out of this convo for good. I have no doubt you’ll slither back here, Cam, to get in the last word. It’s what you do, like a spoiled brat that demands the adults pay it attention.

        Well, son, you’ll get no more from me, online at least. In court…?

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      • I am asking that you apologise for calling me a [Edited by blog owner] without cause.

        As for the rest, YOU initiated contact with ME not vice-versa. You have continued to do so. Occasionally I have responded because you clearly wanted attention from me. I am told you are STILL tweeting at me, for reasons that I do not understand.

        I await the correspondence from your lawyer with interest.

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    • I know an anthology isn’t an award, but if there’s outrage over bad actors having awards named after them, I’m a tad surprised that reaction isn’t visited upon the anthology named after her. It never occurred to me to contact any of the writers published in those anthologies. I guess I thought the issue of Bradley/Breen would be common knowledge in the SF/F community, but I’ve been wrong before. I was just wondering why there’s seemingly no reaction to the Bradley anthology as there has been for the Campbell, Tiptree, et al awards. An honor is an honor after all.

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      • I think you’ve sort of answered your own question. People don’t want a thing they like to be named after somebody they dislike. If some random blogger started their own Campbell Award, nobody would care because the award itself wasn’t notable and few people would want to participate. With the Worldcon Campbell (as opposed to the other pre-existing Campbell Award) people wanted to participate in it and had an engagement with it.

        This anthology is anthology for nobodies – sure it’s a bit of a red flag for authors to avoid but otherwise nobody has heard of it.

        Secondly what could anybody do? Protest? Well that would simply give free publicity & sales to an obscure book. Also, the people running it are MZB supporters, so they aren’t going to change their minds. Net result: anthology is still named after MZB but sold some more copies.

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      • So what you’re saying is that because the anthology is obscure (I’ve never heard of it, but then again, I’ve never heard of the vast majority of awards that are mentioned on Mike Glyer’s site), so no one cares, including File 770, Mike Glyer, or general fandom. But if it became “a thing,” would anyone still care?

        I know what I said below to you and Richard, so I’m hoping this will fizzle out. That said, I will still be reading diligently (when I get the chance) to see if SF/F fandom and the industry in general is truly unbiased. I know I’m not who and what a lot of folks would like in the world being white, male, old, religious, and conservative, but I try to be fair, to listen to others, and most of the time, to be respectful. I’d like to think that even as who I am, I still have a voice as a writer that is sometimes worth listening to as well.

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      • The only *actual* power anybody has is to not participate – and that’s essentially the underlying threat if somebody was protesting an award. i.e. if the name didn’t change then finalist might turn down their nominations or winners not accept the trophy etc.
        If people are all ready ignoring something then they can’t threaten to ignore it. It’s as simple as that.

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  3. James, it is your site and your rules. SO what I say is merely a suggestion.

    Cam is part of a group of extremists that lies and attacks any author to the right of Stalin. I have banned him from my site. I would suggest you do the same. He brings nothing by lies and slanders to the table. He refuses to back up his claims with any proof.

    The fact that he hides behind a fake screen name speaks to his complete lack of character.

    But, as I said, this is your house. If you want to let vermin live in it, that is your call.

    I’m done responding to his pack of lies, here or anywhere else.

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  4. It seems the dialogue has been busy in my absence. Unfortunately, my schedule is pretty demanding these days, so I’m not going to have the bandwidth to read (let alone manage) it all until the weekend. In the meantime, try to keep it at least halfway civil.

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  5. Okay, now I’ve had the time to go over the comments and with all due respect to the both of you (Richard and Cam), I think you’ve said what you had to say. Anything more will simply be repetitive. I suggest you go back to your corners (boxing terminology) and call it a day. I don’t want to have to take more stern measures such as blocking comments and after all, you’re both adults. It’s time to move on.

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      • Well, I hadn’t decided to comment on that… had but then saw what Cam said. I don’t have the knowledge of the field like you or Cam, but I generally would say the same kind of thing he/she said. Like when I asked about a book you were having a short story published in (why not all western states were highlighted), you responded that it’s the publisher’s (or editor’s or whatever) prerogative. That is certainly reason enough; it’s their own business (and might only be one person in some cases). So then I decided to comment on the commentary instead. I don’t know these people, but if all I know is what I just saw…

        I would ask for the backup information at least, allowing for vindication, if not already be leaning one way.

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  6. James, [Edited by blog owner] is a serious allegation and it is one your blog currently has published against me. It is a charge made without substance. I’ll put up with a lot of petty insults but I must object to that and ask that some action be taken on that specific point.

    [NOTE from the blog owner: I have removed all instances of the offensive phrase and closed comments. I encourage healthy debate, but this one has gone too far. I apologize for not paying more attention, but other matters have diverted me from the comments on this blog post.]

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